Ministre Karugarama yinyuraguyemo!

Ministre Karugarama yinyuraguyemo! 6958727247_9143f50d5d

Damien:"Ibyo wabwiye The Chronicles winyuraguyemo! Genda ubisobanurire HE" Tharcisse:"Noneho ndamukizwa n'iki Mana yanjye we"!

Mu kiganiro kirambuye Minisitiri w’ubutabera w’u Rwanda Tharcisse Karugarama yagiranye n’ikinyamakuru “The Chronicles”, yasobanuye ku bibazo byinshi bijyanye n’ubutabera bw’uRwanda ndetse n’ibijyanye n’uko buvugwa mu mahanga.

Mu byibanzweho cyane muri iki kiganiro harimo kuba u Rwanda rutarahwemye kuvugwa na benshi, ku bijyanye n’uburyo ubutabera bwarwo bwaba butigenga, yagarutse kandi ku mpapuro mpuzamahanga zita muri yombi bamwe mu basirikare bakuru b’u Rwanda ndetse n’Umukuru w’Igihugu, zashyizweho n’abacamanza babiri, umwe w’Umufaransa n’undi w’Umunyasipanye.

Ikindi cyagarutsweho muri iki kiganiro, ni uburyo abantu bari mu myanya ikomeye mu butegetsi bw’u Rwanda badakurikiranywa uko bikwiye ku buryo bakoresha umutungo wa Leta. Banagarutse ku buryo uwahoze ari Umukuru w’Igihugu Pasteur Bizimungu, yarekuwemo ahawe imbabazi, ndetse niba ashobora kuvugisha itangazamakuru.

Mu byo baganiriyeho kandi bibanze cyane ku cyizere u Rwanda ruri kugirirwa n’amahanga bigatuma bimwe mu bihugu nka Canada na Leta Zunze Ubumwe z’Amerika byohereza abakekwaho kugira uruhare muri jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi mu Rwanda mu mwaka w’1994, bakagarurwa kuburanishirizwa mu Rwanda.

Iki kiganiro Minisitiri Tharcisse Karugarama yakigiranye n’abanyamakuru batatu ba “The Chronicles” Magnus Mazimpaka, Jean de la Croix Tabaro na Idrissa Byiringiro ; cyashyizwe mu Kinyarwanda n’Umunyamakuru wa IGIHE.com Fiacre Igihozo.

Kuki ibirego by’Abafaransa n’Abanyesipanye bibatera ikibazo ?

Ibyo ni umwanda nk’indi myanda yose, ni umunuko. Ariko bifite ingaruka kuri twe kuko abantu bamwe bemera uwo mwanda, cyangwa batanazi ko ari umwanda. Uwo mwanda kandi, ni nk’ukuri kuri bamwe. Mu nyandiko zabo hakubiyemo ibintu bitatu bikomeye ; icya mbere ni uko ihakana Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi, ivugako abantu bicwaga atari Abatutsi ahubwo hicwaga Abahutu.

Icya kabiri ni uko iyi nyandiko yivugira ibyo FDLR iharanira. Uyu mucamanza w’Umufaransa, yakunze kwigaragaza nk’uharanira amahame ya FDLR, ndetse n’ubuhamya bw’abahakana Jenoside benshi bari Arusha, kandi ubuhamya bw’abo nibwo ahenshi butangira iyi nyandiko buvuga ko abahohoterwaga muri jenoside ari abahutu Atari abatutsi.

Icya gatatu, ni uko Abafaransa badashobora kwizera guverinoma y’uRwanda ; batekereza ko guverinoma y’u Rwanda ariyo ya mbere itagira icyo yitaho. Bo bumva FPR itarashyizweho nk’umuryango wemewe cyangwa uharanira ukuri, ahubwo bayibonaga nk’umutwe w’iterabwoba wabereyeho kumaraho abantu mu gihugu, ubundi bagafata ubutegetsi ku ngufu n’ibindi.

Igihe kimwe umupadiri w’umunya-esipanye yiciwe i Byunba, mu 1992, ariko mu kirego cya mbere umucamanza yavuze ko uyu mupadiri yishwe na RPF. Bavuga ko hari umubikira umwe uvuga ko yabonye abasirikare 40 bavugaga icyongereza, akavuga ko aribo bagomba kuba aribo bishe wa mupadiri. Nyamara ibi avuga, ubwo byarabereye ahantu hagenzurwaga n’ingabo za Habyarimana ; aha abantu bagomba kwibuka ko icyo gihe ingabo za RPF zari ziri kumupaka.

Undi ni umupadiri wapfiriye i Mugina mu Ntara y’Amajyepfo ahasigaye ari muri Muhanga kuri ubu mu 1997. Uyu mupadiri we yaribwe ; kandi abari bamwibye barafatwa barafungwa. Umwe mu bamwibye yahamwe n’icyaha cyo kumwivugana, ahabwa igihano cy’igifungo cya burundu n’urukiko rw’ikirenga.

Muri iyi nyandiko bavuga ko ba bantu 40 aribo nanone bishe uwo mupadiri. Ntabwo byashoboka ko aba bantu 40 buri gihe aribo bahoraga bajyendera hamwe bakajya kwica. Ikindi kirego ni uko mu 1998 ba bantu 40 n’ubundi ngo bishe abantu mu Rehengeri. Aha rero baracyashyira ikibazo muri rusange, bashinja abantu bose bari mu buyobozi bya RPF kugeza muri 2005, ibi rero babyita ibirego, bifite icyo bihishe kuko ntaho bavuga bati “kanaka na kanaka bishe abantu aha naha”.

Muri Kivu y’Amajyepfo ho muri Congo, mu 1999/2000, bavugako ba bantu 40 nanone kandi bishe abamisiyoneri, kuko bivugwa ko muri icyo gihe RPF yagenzuraga uduce tumwe na tumwe twa Congo. Ariko ntushobora kugira aba bantu 40 bagahora bari kumwe imyaka yose no mu bihe bitandukanye. Aba bavugwaho ni abari abayobozi babaga kenshi bari mu bice bitandukanye, bamwe bari mu Mutara, Kigali ndetse n’ahandi henshi hatandukanye mu gihugu.

None se ni gute guverinoma ya Esipanye yemera ibyo bikabaho ?

Oya. Ntabwo ari guverinoma ya Esipanye irega abantu.

None se ni inde ?

Ni umuntu witwa Joan Carlos. Ni umupadiri w’umunya-esipanye, hamwe n’abandi bapadiri bahoze bayoboye iki gihugu mbere ya 94. Iki gihugu cyari kiyobowe na Kiriziya muri icyo gihe. Carlos na bagenzi be bashukwaga n’abantu bake b’abahezanguni bari mu Rwanda, ariko hanyuma ubuhezamguni bwarashize mu Rwanda.

Muri kimwe mu byegeranyo byakozwe na Loni ku Rwanda, cyagaragaje ko Carlos ari umujyanama wa FDLR ndetse yagiye anagaragara mu bikorwa byo gushakira ingabo uyu mutwe wa FDLR ndetse no gushishikariza abantu gutera inkunga uyu mutwe.

Aba bantu bakura amafaranga muri Esipanye nk’umuryango nterankunga utegamiye kuri leta, uvuga ko ugendereye guha ubufasha abagore bo muri Congo n’amahuriro y’abamugaye, nyamara ayo mafaranga bakayihera FDLR. Iyi niyo mpamvu ibigo bimwe nka Intelpol byanze kubahiriza ibyasabwaga n’uyu mucamanza.

Uravuga ko ibi birego ari umwanda. None se abasirikari baregwamo baba noneho bashobora gutembera aho ariho hose ?

Ibi nibyo navuze ko bidufiteho ingaruka, iki ni ikirego gipfuye ku rwego rw’ibirego mpuzamahanga. Abantu batangira kukugenzura bigatuma utabasha kugenda uko ubikeneye. Ariko mbere y’uko abantu bemera ibirego, ni ngombwa ko ubushobozi bw’umucamanza bubanza bukarebwaho.

Ni iki se guverinoma y’u Rwanda yakoze kuri iki kibazo ? Ese ubucamanza bwacu nta nyandiko bwo bwakora igaragaza neza uko ikibazo giteye ?

Ibyo mbabwiye ni nabyo twabwiye guverinoma ya Esipanye.

Bo babivuzeho iki ?

Ibyo ni ibibazo bikiri mu nkiko, nka guverinoma rero ntibashobora kwinjira mu kibazo cy’urukiko.

Haba se hari ubundi buryo byakemurwamo ?

Icyo ni ikibazo. Ni nko kurwana n’umuyaga. Iki ni ikirego gifite ibyo gihishe kandi ntitwabona uburyo bundi twirwanaho tukirwanya. Manda zaratanzwe, kandi abantu barashakishwa. Izi nyandiko zashyizwe kuri internet ariko internet si urukiko.

None se ibyo bivuze ko nta bundi buryo guverinoma y’u Rwanda yakemura icyo kibazo ?

Icyo dukeneye ni ukubona uburyo twatangira kubikurikirana mu buryo bwemewe n’amategeko, ariko kugeza kuri ubu nta muntu wabasha kurwana n’umuyaga. Tugomba kubona uburyo ; ibi birego ntabwo byaziye guverinoma y’u Rwanda, ahubwo byaziye abantu bamwe kandi batashobora kwigeza imbere y’ubutabera, ngo biregure keretse babanje gufatwa.

Uburyo bwa mbere ni ukuba washyira umwe mubaregwa muri Kasho, ubundi abandi ukabareka bakajya imbere y’inkiko tukabafasha kuburana. Ikindi cyakorwa cyaba ari ugusaba umucamanza akirebera uko ikibazo kimeze. Indi nzira ni ukureba umuntu ufite ububasha tukamusaba ko yakuraho uyu mucamanza hagashyirwaho undi udakorana na ba bandi barwanya leta twavugaga.

Imiryango mpuzamahanga myinshi ikunze kunenga u Rwanda ku bw’amategeko yarwo cyane cyane ajyanye na Jenoside, ese ibyo ni ngaruka ki byagize ku mikorere y’ubutabera ?

Muri iyi si, umuntu wese ashobora kuvuga ibyo yishakiye, ariko mu bijyanye n’amategeko ho tuvuga ibintu ari uko tubifitiye gihamya. Ntekereza ko imikorere yacu mu mategeko, iri muri imwe myiza kurusha iyindi Atari no mu karrere gusa ahubwo no ku isi.

Amategeko yacu ari gukorwa nyuma ya Jenoside, kandi tunashyirwa ku mwanya mwiza na Banki y’isi, kukuba dufasha mu korohereza abashoramari, aho twateye intambwe ishimishije. Nyuma y’uko tugiye mu muryango Afurika y’iburasirazuba, amategeko yacu ku byaha bijyanye n’ubucuruzi arimo gukorwa, kandi ashyiramo ingingo zizatuma ashyirwa mu bikorwa neza.

Ariko hari abantu bavuga ibintu bitari ukuri kuri iyi guverinoma ; baravuga ngo ntabwo ushobora gucirwa urubanza neza, bati : “jyayo urebe, bazakwica”. Imanza zirenga miliyoni zaraciwe, ariko nta n’umwe muri abo bakatiwe wigeze atotezwa, abantu bari gukora gusa icyo twita urusaku rwuzuyemo ubusa.

Twageze ku iterambere rishimishije, n’isi yose itangiye kubibona. Hera ku cyemezo cyo kohereza Mugesera mu Rwanda cyafatiwe muri Canada. Bano bantu baba bavuga ibitariho ngo “ntidushobora guhabwa ubutabera buboneye batwica”, ariko abantu amagana baciriwe imanza hano n’umuryango mpuzamahanga wabonye za raporo.

Reba urukiko mpuzamahanga mpanabyaha ICTR, ubu barateganya kohereza Fulgence Karishema hano mu Rwanda. Ni iki se batuvugaho ? Ibi biravuga ko uburyo imanza zicibwamo hano buboneye bihagije ku kuba twaburanisha aba bantu muburyo bw’amategeko yujuje ubuziranenge.

Abanyarwanda bavuga ko ubu abantu bakurikiranyweho ibyaha bya Jenoside boherezwa n’amahanga ngo baba bafatwa neza kurusha uko bagakwiye gufatwa ?

Twe turakora ibyo amategeko avuga. Niyo mpamvu umuntu ashobora gutekereza ko dufata neza cyane aba bantu. Ariko nanone n’ubwo aba bantu bakurikiranweho ibyaha bikomeye, ni abacu tugomba kubacira urubanza mu buryo bwiza.

Nshobora kuvuga nka Finland. Abanya Finland bahoze bari hano bakora bagenzura, kandi baniga imikorere y’ubutabera bwacu, raporo bakoze yavugaga ko imikorere y’ubucamanza bwacu ari myiza bihagije ku buryo bwaburanisha umuntu uwo ariwe wese. Muri iyo raporo bavuga ko inkiko zo mu Rwanda ziri gushyiraho ingingo zose zirengera uburenganzira bwa muntu. Ndatekereza ko abantu batangiye kumenya ko u Rwanda rumeze neza, abo rero bavuga ibindi ni abadashaka kubona ibintu uko biri. Kuva muri Amerika ya ruguru, Canada, Suwede, u Bwongereza, n’ibindi ndetse n’umuryango mpuzamahanga ubu noneho byamaze kugirira icyizere imikorere yacu.

Ariko abatavuga rumwe na leta bavuga ko nta muntu ushobora gutsinda urubanza mu Rwanda, ko guverinoma ikora ibishoboka byose kugira ngo itume aba bantu batsindwa imanza ?

Ubundi ikintu umuntu aba agomba gukora mu nkiko ni ukwiregura ukoresheje ibimenyetso bifatika. Niba se umuntu yarakoze icyaha, ni gute yatekereza gutsinda mu nkiko ? Waba warigeze se wumva Mugesera ahakana ibyo yavuze, aramutse rero agiye imbere y’urukiko ikintu cyonyine yashobora gukora ni ukuvuga ati : “mumbabarire kubyo navuze”, ariko ntashobora gutsinda urubanza kuko yavuze amagambo arimo gukoreshwa mu kumurega. Hari ubwo se yigeze ahakana ko atabivuze ? Ariko se ubundi ni bangahe Gacaca imaze gucira imanza ? Ni benshi cyane ! Murashaka kuzana umuntu uhamwa n’ibyaha 100%, hanyuma urukiko rukavuga ruti uwo ni umwere kugirango wereke abantu ko umuntu ashobora gutsinda urubanza mu Rwanda ?

Ushyize nko ku manota icumi, ubutabera bw’u Rwanda wabuha amanota angahe ?

Ubutabera bwacu bushobora kuba budakora ibintu byose neza, ariko iyo urebeye ku mikorere ikwiye, turi aba mbere muri Afurika y’iburasirazuba, ndetse no ku mugabane wose.

Nk’urugero, muri 2003 ubwo impinduka zari zimaze gukorwa, ubutabera bwahawe ubwigenge bwabwo butandukanywa na politiki. Ubwo nibwo izi nzego zose mubona zashyizweho ; urukiko rw’ikirenga, urukiko rukuru, urwego rw’amagereza, ibi byose byari byarahoze biri munshingano za minisiteri y’ubutabera, bikavuga ko hari uko byagengwaga na leta. Kuri ubu inkiko zigira ingengo y’imari yazo zigengaho, zibasha gushyiraho abacamanza bazo, ku buryo ubu minisiteri ntaho igihuriye n’ubucamanza ndetse n’ubushinjacyaha.

Mbere y’impinduka, ubucamanza bwabaga bugomba guca imanza zigera ku bihumbi 5000 ku mwaka, ariko kugeza ubu noneho aho umubare wagabanutseho cyimwe cya gatatu, abacamanza baca imanza ibihumbi 50 ku mwaka. Icyo impinduka zo muri 2003 zari zigendereye, cyari ukongera ubushobozi n’ubwigenge by’abacamanza, hakabaho abacamanza bacye ariko bashobora gukora imirimo myinshi.

Muri 2003 abantu batatu ku ijana gusa nibo bari bafite impamyabushobozi mu by’amategeko, ariko kugeza ubu ubwo tuvugana abacamanza bose bafite impamyabushobozi mu mategeko, kandi imishahara yabo yikubye inshuro icumi iyo bahoze bahembwa mbere. Ibi rero byafashije mu kugira ubutabera buzira ruswa.

Reka tukujyane mu bindi gato. Ni mu buhe buryo uwahoze ari perezida Pasteur Bizimungu yababariwemo ? Nk’urugero ntabwo ajya avugisha itangazamakuru.

Icyo navuga ni uko amabwiriza yahawe ari meza, ariko kandi niba bifuza ko yasubirwamo nabyo byakorwa. Ntekereza ko ashobora kuvuga, kandi n’undi muntu wese yavuga, ariko biterwa n’ibyo bari kuvugaho, n’uburyo amabwiriza ameze, byakabaye byiza rero mu bimwibarije. Kandi nshobora kongeraho ko atigeze ahabwa igifungo cya burundu, amabwiriza rero yaba yarahawe yose, aba agomba kurangirana n’igihe cy’igifungo yakatiwe, uko rero ayo mabwiriza yaba yari ameze kose ntashobora kurenza igihe cyingana n’icy’igifungo yari yarakatiwe, ntekereza ko ari n’igihe gito kigomba kuba cyararangiye.

Ese ubu ngubu ashinzwe iki nk’umuntu wigeze kuba perezida hatitawe ku byaha yaba yarakoze ?

Umuntu wigeze kuba perezida w’igihugu si umuntu ubonetse wese nk’uwo wasanga ku muhanda. Agomba kurindwa umuntu wese wagerageza kumuhohotera, kuko hagize ikimubaho guverinoma y’u Rwanda yabibazwa. Ariko ku bijyanye no kuba atavugisha itangazamakuru, wenda ntashaka kwinjira mu bijyanye na politiki akaba anatekereza ko wenda kujya mu itangazamakuru bitaba ari igitekerezo cyiza kuri we. Ntamuntu n’umwe uzi icyo atekereza, ariko icyo nzi cyo ni uko umuntu wese ashobora kuvuga, kandi nawe yemerewe kuvugisha uwo ashaka, ariko atekereza no kuburyo yarekuwemo.

Kugeze ubu umubano w’u Rwanda n’uBufaransa wifashe ?

Umubano uhagaze neza rwose

Ariko u Rwanda rwanze kwakira ambasaderi w’u Bufaransa wari washyizweho, ubwo byaba byerekana umubano wimbitse ?

Mbere y’uko igihugu cyohereza ambasaderi mu kindi, ni itegeko ko ubanza ukabaza icyo gihugu ugiye kumwoherezamo mukemeranywa kuri uwo muntu uba ugomba koherezwa. Ubwo ni bwo buryo bwemewe mu mibanire ya dipolomasi. Ni ibintu bimenyerewe ko igihugu gihakana ambasaderi, kandi ku bijyanye n’amategeko ya dipolomasi ni icyemezo cya dipolomasi cyemewe kandi nta n’ibisobanuro bitangwa ngo hasobanurwe impamvu z’ibyemezo bya leta. Nta mpamvu yo gushyira igihugu mu mwanya wo kwisobanura.

Hari amafaranga menshi ya leta yibwe atarabasha gusubizwa n’abahamwe n’icyaha cyo kuyanyereza. Nk’umunyamategeko wa leta ni ryari kandi ni gute aya mafaranga azagaruzwa ?

Mbere na mbere, abakurikiranyweho icyaha bagomba kuba baraburanishijwe bagahamwa n’icyaha cyo gukoresha nabi umutungo wa leta ku buryo nta yandi mahirwe yo kujya imbere y’inkiko baba bagifite, kandi zimwe mu manza ziracyari mu nkiko.

Ku bakurikiranwaho ibyaha byo kunyereza umutungo wa leta, bikaba ngombwa ko banawishyura, bagomba kuba barahamijwe ibyaha nyuma y’urubanza rwanyuma. Mbere yaho rero ntacyo wabasha gukora, n’ubwo kugeza ubu itegeko mpanabyaha cyane cyane ingingo ijyanye n’iki kibazo, ririmo gusubirwamo.

Mu magambo make uburyo amafaranga ya leta agaruzwamo buracyari hasi. Dukeneye gushyiraho uburyo buboneye bwo kugaruza ayo mafaranga, uburyo bugomba gushyira icyo gikorwa mu nshingano z’ikigo cy’igihugu gishinzwe imisoro n’amahoro, ariko uburyo buriho bwo buri hasi kuburyo butabasha gufasha mu kugaruza umutungo wa leta.

Nka Minisitiri w’Ubutabera ni iki ushobora kwishimira ko cyagezweho mu gihe umaze muri iyi mirimo ?

Ntabwo ndi mu bakwishima imirimo nakoze. Uruhare nagize ni agace gato kuzuza uruhare rwagizwe n’abandi muri iki gihugu. Ariko hari ikintu Abanyarwanda bakwishimira nanjye ngomba kwifatanya. Abanyarwanda muri rusange nange mbarimo hari byinshi twakwishimira nk’imiyoborere nyiza, umutekano w’iki gihugu, iterambere mu bukungu ndetse n’ibikorwa remezo, ibi byose abanyarwanda bagomba kubyishimira.

Ni murage ki wumva wifuza gusiga ?

Igihe leta yari impaye amahirwe yo gukorera igihugu, nakoze uko nshoboye n’ubwo ibyo nari nshoboye bitavuga ko aribyo byiza ku gihugu, ariko ndishimira ko nagize uruhare rwange mu kubaka igihugu. Ni nsezera nzavuga nti naragerageje nkora ibyo nari nshoboye, kandi igihe nakoraga igihugu cyateye imbere mu nzego zitandukanye zirimo n’urw’ubutabera, ari narwo nakozemo.

Nzishimira ko nahesheje ishema igihugu mu bindi bihugu, kandi ko natanze umusanzu wange muto mu kugira u Rwanda ahantu heza ho kuba. Ibi ariko bigomba kuba iby’Abanyarwanda bose ku bw’uruhare rwabo cyane cyane ubuyobozi bw’u Rwanda. Ntekereza ko twagiye tugira ibikorwa biyobowe neza.

Ubusanzwe warakoraga iki mbere yo kujya muri politiki ?

Nakoze byinshi cyane. Nabanje kuba porokireri haba hano mu Rwanda ndetse no hanze y’u Rwanda (Uganda). Nakoze mu Rukiko rukuru rwa Repubulika, ndetse n’urwikirenga nk’umucamanza, nakuriye kandi komisiyo ishinzwe gukosora itegeko. Nakoranye na UNHCR mu gihe kingana n’imyaka ine, ndetse na UNICEF mu gihe k’indi myaka igera kuri irindwi mbere y’uko ngaruka mu Rwanda.

Nanakoreye kandi imiryango itandukanye itegamiye kuri leta mbere y’uko ninjira muri guverinoma y’u Rwanda. Nakoranye kandi CNN amezi agera kuri atandatu nk’umunyamakuru, ngarutse mu Rwanda nyuma ya Jenoside nafashije mu gukora filime ivuga kuri Jenoside, ndetse n’ingorane z’ubutabera bw’u Rwanda. Hari utuntu twinshi tworoheje nagiye nkora ariko nifuza kwita kubyo ndimo ubu kurusha ibyo nakoze mu gihe gishize.

Wabwira abantu ko Karugarama ari muntu ki ?

Ndi umunyamategeko w’umwuga, nahawe impamyabushobozi mu 1979. Mfite imyaka 58.

Source Igihe.com

 


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